Thursday, January 22, 2009

Death Charts ?

I was recently asked by a relative and friend who reads my blog whether a chart drawn up for the time of a person's death says something about the person, or the life they've lived.

My response was "No", and that as I see the natal chart, a death chart, or any astrological chart, they provide a kind of time-stamp which carries within it the qualities of a single moment, supposedly identifiable by the position of the planets at that moment - but there could well be other things involved. The moment of death might disclose a tight conjunction or aspect between a transiting planet and a planet in the natal chart of the deceased, but in the charts I've studied it seems not always to have been the case. Referring to an ephemeris (a book containing tables of planetary positions during a century (or more, or less) one could trace backwards and find likely periods when the path of life might well have changed for the native, but these would have no bearing on how the native actually responded during these periods.

I'm aware that my chosen view of astrology is a minimalist one. I believe that at some point in the future discoveries will be made which can validate the barest bones of astrological doctrine, but will leave much of the peripheral stuff and fine detail at best still in doubt, at worst completely discredited. That is my own feeling, driven by my personal astro-makeup though. I could be totally wrong about it all.

I wonder whether anyone passing through Learning Curve on the Ecliptic might have a theory on the matter of death charts which they'd be willing to share?


Anonymous said...

Hey again! I commented here once, when the topic was about movies. I am from Brazil.

So, I think I didn’t express myself the way I wanted. I am conscious about the sun being one of the most important planet influences in our chart, and I don’t use internet to cast charts, but janus4 by the way.
I wanted to emphasis the importance of the outer planets in our personalities. The way we express our collective behavior as a group, as a generation, as people sharing the same energies from that particular planet can influence the way we see the world, and how we would project it as society in general, by the lens of each individualistic path along the history of the globe.
I agree when you say that differences between generations are not strong enough to cancel out personal planet traits, but are strong enough to put empty holes between them, like “what the hell they were thinking? – judgment” (just an example), and this directs to the “why that generation is so different from mine? I wouldn’t do this… I wouldn’t do that…” even if your sun/moon/mars… are the same from the other from another generational planet, that’s why I emphasizes on it, I don’t know if it’s my Pluto in Scorpio, but I can fell the power of generation can project as individuals, and I don’t want to divide, but the reality is that people have this division wanting or not, and the hole to be fulfill, I guess all of this, leads to our experiences as society and why we would or why not walk in unity in our blue and wonderful earth in a wheel that cannot stop.
I am totally humanitarian person, for me, the world could benefit from what country has given to explore and to learn from others nation history and to join all into one and become a real citizens of the earth itself, and sharing the same resources, same technology, each one has something to give, so as the pieces of earth of this incredible globe of creativeness.
Just to add something more, I live in Brazil, a different reality may rise from each person born in these lands; so as anyone born in different locations of the globe, we have potential, so the world has it too, but there are those who can do something with this into something productive, there are those who can do something with this into something destructive and there are those who can do something with this into something “what am I supposed to do with all of this gold?”, only time can tell blablabla.
You rock by the way!
I really enjoy reading your posts!
Take care!

Twilight said...

Rafael - Hi again! :-)

I'm going to copy your comment here to the Aquarius post from yesterday, along with your two previous ones, and I'll reply there. Any future readers will then be able to see how the conversation continued.

Anonymous said...
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Wisewebwoman said...

Interesting this. I would imagine, with my scanty knowledge of topic that the confluence of stars/planets at one's death would have some bearing on one's termination?
Have any studies been done at all, i.e. JFK, Hendrix, RFK, MLK et al? Would there not be a common thread?
Just askin' ;^)

Twilight said...

WWW ~~~ I'm sure someone, somewhere will have done some research on this, but I haven't found any record of it so far - but I haven't searched extensively. The subject is a tad depressing!

I think that there are likely to be indications in the chart for the moment of death as to "something" occurring, but the trouble is it need not indicate death, it might be illness, or spraining th ankle....anything or nothing.

Traditional astrologers had/have some method of determining at what stage death (or length of life) is likely from a natal chart - something called the hyleg, I think - but again, I haven't investigated. Traditional astrology is pretty doom-laden and not for the faint-hearted. Things have changed so much since they came up with that method anyway - it belongs to the past in my view, not to this day and age with improved medicines and care. I don't believe our life is fated to that degree.

Jupiter is often but not always, found conjoining a planet at time of death - which is odd because Jupiter is generally benighn - but then death can be thought of, and often is, a blessed release for some.

Anonymous said...

Hi Twi--

I was asked about this same thing some time ago--and my response was very similar. My investigations showed one consistency in recognizing aspects at death--that they were, just like in life, specific to the individual and their chart. I think it's good that we can see crisis points, but not a definitive time of death--that might be too much! Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic.
Julie D

Unknown said...

Your last 2 posts are very interesting for me. My grandfather has just died on 17th and I was going to have a look at his chart to see if there was anything of interest but then realised that unlike the time of birth pinpointing the time of death is not so easy.

The dying process can take some time and when the heart stops it is possible for the brain to continue for a period of time afterward. Obviously with no oxygen this isn't a long process until the brain stem "dies". So when would you say that the person was dead? Heart failure stops the blood circulating but there may be residual "life" in the brain.

Also does death occur when the soul leaves the body? Or when the organic body stops dead?

I suppose this is a bit like the point when life begins. Is it when conception occurs, when the cells look like a baby or when the soul enters the body?

On a lighter note, you have now "met" an Aquarian with an interest in the occult. Like you I'm not into groups of people such as clubs etc. I can be social but I don't surround myself with people. Independent, like my own company and have a small number of close friends rather than lots of acquaintances. I don't live in the past so don't keep up with anyone from school, college, work etc. I like to move on.

However, my take on humanitarian is that we do have an interest in mankind as a whole (group) and may take an interest in the different races (group) or other "groups" of people in the sense of seeking to understand what brings people together or even drives them apart. And of course the internet has brought me to your blog and others about astrology that I read so is that a group of blogs/group of like minded people?

Anonymous said...

Oh, and something I forgot, for you and WWW--try Richard Houck's 'Astrology of Death'--an excellent resource with much interesting detail and many methods of 'death calculation' explained. It's got a very intriguing explanation of eclipses as protective, or as triggers, under traumatic circumstances.

Twilight said...

Anonymous (Julie) ~~ Hi!
Thanks for your input, and reminding us that whatever indication there might be of death in a chart, after the event, that it would only apply to the owner of that particular chart.
That's important in every part of astrology too, and something overlooked a lot in the rush to categorize and label.

Thanks for your 2nd comment - I'll keep a note of the book you mention in case anyone asks me in future. I will not try to investigate my own length of vacation on this fair planet - I'd become instantly paranoid ! ;-)
And what if I calculated wrongly - I might decide to spend all my money, have a good time, and then be destitute for maybe another 5 years. (wink).

Twilight said...

Rossa ~~~ Yes, there are all sorts of complications in pinpointing time of death. I would suppose it to be the last breath, for these purposes as the first breath is commony thought to be the time of birth - although some astrologers do have other ideas.

Ah yes - I now know of at least one more Aqua person with similar interests - good! Of course there are Aquarian astrologers, but astrology isn't "the occult", in spite of what skeptics say, so I discounted the Aqua astrologers I know of.

Groups - well, yes, I guess you could look on the astrology bloggers and other bloggers, and visitors to blogs as a community, or group. This is a relatively new development though. In the past, when Aquarius and groups were discussed I think it mainly covered things like clubs, and well, groups or teams. Maybe we've grown into it, eh?! Like a pair of oversized jeans. ;-)

Humanitarian - I'm still chewing on. I still think it's more the domain of Pisces, but maybe I'm excluding too much. Maybe this is what it is: Sun in Aquarius on its own doesn't equal humanitarian. But a planet such as Venus (love) or Moon (nurturing) in Aquarius might bring it out - alternatively a Sun Aquarius person with a personal planet or more in Pisces, or a Pisces ascendant.....etc would bring the same trait into play.

I don't know, I'm surmising - but it's something to ponder on and keep in mind. :-)

Unknown said...

Well I have got Venus in Pisces so maybe that's where it comes from, my love of mankind. Though I could never be involved in the caring professions such as nursing. I don't have that vocation.

Saying that my closest friend is a Sun Pisces and is very humanitarian. She was a carer for many years and used to sit with the dying and help lay them out afterwards. Often the elderly in her care would ask for her to be with them at the end. So looks like you're on the right track.

NB I do know a male Sun Pisces who is the complete opposite. Though he is on the cusp of Aries. Very much the alpha male, a driven, ruthless businessman type so guess where his influence may come from? Does have a softer side, but well hidden. I would say he views "caring" as a weakness.

Twilight said...

Rossa ~~ Speaking of nursing - before I settled down into a career I had all kinds of ideas - one was to be a psychiatric! I went for an interview, passed, but my parents persuaded me not to take it up.
I have Jupiter in Pisces, just 30* from my natal Sun (semi-sextile).

Male Pisces - I've not known many. I had an uncle, my Dad's youngest brother, with Sun in Pisces, he was a ship's captain on ocean liners. That fit the Neptune (ruler of Pisces) thing. He wasn't what I'd call typically Piscean though....probably had Aries prominent too, and I bet some Aquarius because it was strong in my Dad's family.