Thursday, July 01, 2010

Astrologers' Words of Wisdom #7

From the opening pages of astrologer Liz Greene's Mythic Astrology (1994), words which ought to be printed and regularly circulated among the loud-mouthed brigade of skeptics! ~~~

We would not presume to claim we have grasped the principles of music by listening to a pop song or the theme tune from a television soap. Likewise, astrology will not yield its insights to those who simply read Sun sign columns in newspapers and then pronounce judgment on the validity of the subject as a whole. We must begin at the beginning, with a willingness to learn and experiment, and a capacity to recognize that the great minds of history for whom astrology was of primary importance - Hippocrates, Plato, Augustus, Hadrian, Ptolemy, Galen, Newton, Goethe and Jung, to name but a few - may have understood something that has eluded our present definitions of reality.
And from later in the same book ~~~

No horoscope can indicate whether an individual will turn healthy self-assertiveness into violence, or imaginative self mythologizing into dangerous delusions of global dominion. Mozart's horoscope may look surprisingly like that of the school music teacher. Factors beyond the scope of astrology - heredity, environment, historical epoch - interact with individual character to produce unpredictable results.


Wisewebwoman said...

Great post, T. This could apply to all sciences and arts.

gian paul said...

I too consider Liz Green a very respectable astrologer. She however slipped up in mentioning Newton as a support of her (our) science. It was Johannes Kepler. Newton had to hear from Kepler the following(from memory): "You can not contest the tenants of astrology unless you examine them as I have done".

Twilight said...

WWW ~~~ Thanks (well thanks to Liz Greene, actually!)

Twilight said...

gian paul ~~~ It's a bit strange Kepler isn't mentioned there, yes.

I've just looked at a piece about Newton at Skyscript:

Seems that though he studied and was interested in astrology, he never wrote about it.

I wonder if the quote you are recalling is the one attributed to Newton (though not substantiated anywhere)when he said to Halley something along the lines you've quoted
"I have studied these things, you have not"
or words to that effect?

gian paul said...

Newton in my recollection of what I read was very skeptical of astrology. His epistular conversation with Kepler lasted a number of years, letters got lost in war skirmishes, but I am positive, if my information is correct, that the convinced astrologer was Kepler and not the other way round.

It's actually not a small detail, given the ongoing ABSENCE of genuine scientific dialogue between us "astrologers" and "pure scientists". Gauquelin was about the only one who managed to build some kind of a bridge.

But then, and that's an almost insolent or elitist thought: is astrology reserved for a few - and not unlike the Tarot - protected from the "fools"? The first by its trivial applications (sun-sign astrology, good for the boulevard press) and the second by common games of cards (which actually ignore the major 22 arcana)?

Twilight said...

gian paul ~~~ I haven't read much in depth on this topic, but the very fact that Newton didn't feel drawn to write about astrology must tell us something.....though perhaps he held to the wisest position of all: "don't know". He didn't risk putting that in writing - it wouldn't have been seemly, I guess, for someone with his background.

As truth is lost in the mists of time, about so many things, we have to simply wonder on these matters, and come to the best conclusion we can.

I've met the outlook that astrology, and some occult ideas (I don't count astrology as occult)
are, or have been, kept hidden from the Great Unwashed, the "secrets" only being available to a chosen few. I'm sure this went on in centuries past - now, not so much.

I see Sun sign astrology, when done properly and with integrity, as one of the gateways into the subject. Just as a jingly pop song can interest someone in trying to learn to play guitar or piano.

Not sure about the tarot background, which like so much is hidden in the mists of time, but some who set themselves up as "proper" tarot readers do tend to take on a rather elitist air.

Elitism is one of my pet not to go into that.

gian paul said...

On Kepler/Newton, my comments: "garbage-in/garbage -out" - I checked the times when they lived, Kepler having died in 1630 and Newton being born in 1642 (if that is correct...), they could possibly not have corresponded.

So the story I related was made up by I don't remember whom. As the Italians say: se non e vero e bem trovato!

Now if one considers how over time stories get altered, and today's versions of the Bible (and other holy books, no doubt)is a prime target of suspicion, one may have a glimpse on the reasons organized religions are so far from the truth and unable to give light to their followers.

But then the world is composed of various strata and for each there appears to be provided what's needed. Applies equally to astrology, I guess.

Twilight said...

gian paul ~~~ "Chinese Whispers" at work - again! Though the detail wasn't accurate the idea behind it was more or less correct.
(The Italians put it a lot more

I agree with your comment about holy books. They have been translated, mis-translated, mangled and manipulated for centuries by those in power....and originally written by those in power to achieve control of the populace. I cannot understand how they can now be taken at face value.

Astrology isn't free of this mangling and manipulation.

Problem is, on both counts, it's impossible to sort out the wheat from the chaff now. We simply have to proceed by instinct, I suppose.

gian paul said...

I am by far not a fan of Dan Brown, but if his Da Vinci Code was such a success, it's that the masses intuitively feel that there is so much manipulation being dished up, that "enough is enough".

Which is tremendous news, Aquarian age, or at least a type of precursor phenomenon. I believe we are there already, whereas you tend, I understand, to want to wait another 150 years. But then I am a semper impatient Aries and have Mars in Aqu...

Just read your post about Mary Quant, great gal indeed and your picture of her and her success story is excellent. You are by the way a richly endowed person your self. Congrats!

Twilight said...

gian paul ~~~ Me too Dan Brown, I mean. I see your point about the book and movie's popularity - you could well be onto something there!

I'd like the age of Aquarius to be coming in quickly. I'm not quite sure what to think on this though, and have tended to accept Robert Hand's view on it - that there's a long way to go yet.

But....and it's a big but...who's to say when the "start date" happened? If that's wrong, then everything is wrong. We don't have a secure "start date", as far as I can tell.

Logically I think we still seem to be in a belligerent Age - Taurus, Aries? Astrologers think not. They see Pisces as representing the Age of Christianity and organised religion, ruled by Jupiter. But religion is not all that has gone on these 2000 years. It's not even the important part of what has gone on - although it has been the cause of much mayhem.

So I really don't know - and wonder at times if the whole "Age of...." thing isn't just so much
Taurean Excrement aka BS.

Thank you kindly for your compliment - and I'll repay it sincerely by saying the same applies to you, sir!

gian paul said...

Depending on the signs, one could imagine, that some "ages" may be shorter or longer than others. Or there might be overlap also.

In that sense, I wonder if the sacred cows in India and what goes with it, are not a remnant of the Age of Taurus. And the bellicose events during the Christian Era, possibly an overlap from the Age of Aries - eye for eye/tooth for tooth...

The Christian Era, Pisces, has probably the most precise starting date we know, although there is historical doubt about the actual year of birth of Jesus. Ancient Roman sources (Plinius), diverge for about 5 to 30 years.

And, should the Era of Aquarius already have started, we now assist at the probably normal retro-fighting typical at the end of any civilization.

Briefly here the elements I believe are typically "Aquarian Age stuff":

* Aviation, rapid transports in general
* Communications
* Science with a clear bent towards the atomic, nano, cyber etc.
* Beliefs, you, me and who else participates in your blog and other, similar ones.
* Politics: democracy is being opened up to "forces beyond simple manipulation". The age of "one man one vote" has some time ago, say after Hitler/Goebbels who were a legally elected government, ceased to properly function. But "the people", all over the world, increasingly know that politicians lie, manipulate etc. And they somehow respond, via the media, arts, even violence and manifestations (G 20 etc).

For who watches the stars which preside political events, it's quite obvious who governs. How much time it will take for this perception to become more general, if ever, is open to speculation, literally one would have to look into the "speculum", or cristal ball.

Living in Brazil, quite an Aquarian country, one can sense that there is a rare "wind ( = air) of change" going on. So the frontier may be blurred, but I personally would not be surprised if things suddenly start precipitating!

Twilight said...

gian paul ~~~ You've brought up some great ideas there!

Yes, some overlap of Ages sounds right to me.

Although we know roughly when Christ was born and count that as the dawn of the Age of Pisces, it's the question of how they knew when the whole thing started, and the point from which they started countin that keeps niggling away at my mind.

The start of all these cycles must have had to be an arbitarily chosen point of when life began on Earth. Which life, which stage though? And whereas the Ages are calculated by the precession of the equinoxes, nobody can be absolutely sure where it would have been correct to have begun counting.

I hope I've written that clearly enough - it's hard to explain my quandry.

Also - another point, our solar system is part of a wider universe, which may also be part of a still wider set of universes, for all we know. Wouldn't there be alignments and aspects made to our Ages - like the macrocosm of the microcosm in our astrological charts?

I do agree that what has gone on on Earth since the Industrial Revolution seems to be classic Aquarius/Uranus stuff....invention, discovery etc.
Then again, Saturn was Aquarius's traditional ruler, and sure enough there's been a lot of Saturnian stuff going on too.

Yes, I agree with your comments on politics - it is becoming more obvious by the day who is really in power - and it isn't the politicians!

Very interesting points, gp. Worthy of a post to themselves. I'll copy and credit them to you one day next week in a separate post, if that's okay with you?

gian paul said...

Do what you think best with my ideas. I am a "vector" sometimes, as you are one too. Just trust that if an idea is right (anybody's), it will go "someplace". If not, it's chaff as you say. Biblical.

Twilight said...

gian paul ~~~ Many thanks. I'll work the comments into a post for the near future, credit you by name and link to Astrology Mundo.