Thursday, May 14, 2015

Time of Birth

Commenter Bob's mention of rectification with regard to Bernie Sanders' natal chart, (see last weekend's post), reminded me that it's been some 6 years since I last posted on the topic of astrological rectification - that is, determination of a person's exact time of birth using dates and times of events in their later life. Rectification techniques are also used by astrologers in cases of public figures, such as Bernie Sanders, whose time of birth, though probably known, has not been made public. I noticed, during Google searches, that there's another astrologer working on rectification of Senator Sanders' natal chart too . See HERE.

Now's as good a time as any for a re-run on the topic of astrological rectification in general:

Rectification in Astrology

Knowing your exact time of birth is key to being able to use astrology at its most accurate. Unfortunately it's not easy to obtain information exact enough for detailed astrological purposes. In the USA time of birth is routinely recorded - but whether this is always accurate to within 5, 10, 20 minutes (or more) is anybody's guess, and relies on the efficiency and care of hospital staff (unless a relative is present at the birth and also interested in astrology). In some cases just a few minutes difference can mean a different rising sign, sometimes even a different Moon sign, which, in turn affects the time when transiting planets conjoin or aspect natal planets and points.

The rising sign, also known as the ascendant, is the zodiac sign which was coming over the horizon at your place of birth, at your exact time of birth. It is thought by astrologers to be one of the three most important factors in the natal chart, along with positions of Sun and Moon.

There's an imponderable involved here though: is the exact time of birth when the baby's head appears, when the umbilical cord is cut, when the baby takes its first breath? Or should we, in truth, be more concerned with time of conception (almost impossible to establish)? We can only do our best, follow our own feelings on the matter.

Professional astrologers can be of assistance in establishing a likely time of birth for clients who lack the information. If the client lists exact dates of highly significant life events (serious illness, operations, marriage, birth of offspring, divorce, moving home, change of career) the astrologer can use these to estimate a birth time, using various complex methods. Any rough time span the client knows, from conversation with parents, would be of great help. If a client had no idea at all of their time of birth, not even day/night or morning/afternoon, the task would be extra difficult, but I believe an estimate could still be made.

I had problems discovering my own birth time. My birth occurred at home. The story, as told by my father misled me somewhat. He said he thought that I was born "around tea time" - in our world that would have been around 5pm. A birth time of approximately 5pm in the city where I was born would mean Leo was rising. My mother had no reliable memory of my birth time; not surprising as she suffered a hemorrhage and almost died. She did offer once: "I think it might have been about 3 o'clock, but I'm not sure".

I struggled with the idea of having Leo as rising sign for many years. The only link with Leo tendencies I could identify in myself was a tendency to hanker after the most expensive version of anything I went out to buy. "Champagne taste, and beer money", my Mum used to say.

Many years later, after both my parents had died, my mother's sister who had been present at my birth told me that she felt fairly sure I was born around 2.30pm. Unwilling to go against my Dad's estimate completely, I decided on a rough time estimate, splitting the difference. With this estimate, Cancer became my rising sign, and it did fit my personality better, especially the way I was in youth, and to some extent even now.

There must be thousands of people in the UK with no clear information on their times of birth, it's such a pity there's no requirement for authorities to record birth times. After I moved to live in America and started learning the finer points of astrology, I paid a professional astrologer who specialises in rectification to look at my chart. After considering a list of some 10 to 12 life events, and with the time span I offered: 2pm to 6pm, the astrologer estimated a birth time of 2.27pm. He said that although he was not as sure as he'd like to be about the exact degree, he was certain that Cancer was rising at the time of my birth. I suspect my true birth time was somewhere between 2.27 & 3pm, and nearer to 3pm than 2.27, but decided to work with the time the astrologer came up with - doubt has to stop somewhere!


Sonny G said...

I agree, an accurate birth time is very important to the whole chart making sense..It wasnt until all these years later when Mike mentioned the degree of my rising/ascendent and that I should read Scorpio instead of Libra that my everything started to make sense..reading it made so many bells and whistles go off for me. all the things family and friends had said To Me and About Me was understandable.. as much as correct Time of birth- someone who is astute concerning astrology is a MUST Have.
thanks again Mike.

mike said...

Sonny - You're welcome! You are a late-degree Libra ascendent and most astrologers implore that you are a Libran...period. Many of my friends and relatives have late-degree ascendants and I've noticed over the years that they do have qualities that match the ascendent, but have stronger qualities matching the next sign and are strongly affected by transits-aspects of that sign. My logic is that those with late-degree ascendents...their first house demarcation...that first house contains much more of the next sign than the sign on the ascendant.

With your late-degree Libra ascendant, you have a large amount of Scorpio in your first house that shouldn't be ignored. When planets transit or aspect that portion of Scorpio, you will experience them as first house.

This will be true for your seventh house, too, Sonny. You have a late-degree Aries 7th house cusp, but your 7th house contains a lot of Taurus. True for any house cusp having a late degree.

This excerpt is from Solaris:
"If you know that your Ascendant degree is in the middle of your Rising sign then I [you] should read both your own sign and the next one along and combine the two. For example if your rising sign is at 14 degrees Libra then read Libra and also Scorpio and combine the two for the best chance to get an accurate forecast.

If your Ascendant degree point is towards the end of your Rising Sign, then I suggest that you read the next sign along. For example, if you ascendant is at 27 degrees Libra, it will be better for you to read the forecast for Scorpio, as it will be more accurate for you."


Twilight, it must be a bit frustrating to have such an active interest in astrology and not know the accurate time of birth! But, as you indicate, even when one believes the time of birth when provided, it may not be accurate, or is skewed. I've read several astrologers' comments that they always recommend rectification even when their client provides a seemingly accurate birth time.

Rectification has correlation of astrological transits-aspects versus life's events as its function. Tight correlations can often be slightly off, due to the orb of influence. The USA's Sibley chart is a rectification that was thought to be validated based on the events of 9-11-2001 as Pluto crossed the Sagittarius ascendent. Surprisingly, there are at least three differing natal charts established for the USA using vastly divergent day and time of birth, with each providing reasonably decent correlations to actual events.

When the DAY of birth is known, but the time is not, I prefer the sunrise chart, which places the Sun on the ascendent to establish an equal house, solar chart.

Regardless of accurate ascendent, the planetary transits-aspects for that day will be reasonably accurate, except for the Moon's position, and some modest rectification can differentiate the Moon's sign placement, and possibly the degree.

Twilight said...

Sonny ~ Yes, agreed, mike has a very good Scorpio nose. He also opened my eyes to a subtle undercurrent of it in my own chart. :-)

mike (again) said...

P.S. - A well known astrologer that I follow has stated that some of his clients correlate more to their natal chart (day & time of birth), while others correlate more to their solar chart (day). I utilize both and find that my natal chart is more intimate and personal, but my solar chart is more apt to define my outer-world, ego-based experiences.

Twilight said...

mike ~ Your comment went to spam for some reason - fortunately I saw the e-mail notification straight away and rescued it. :-/

Yes, it is frustrating not to have a 100% reliable time of birth. It's to astrology's credit, and strength I guess, that even without a fully accurate time of birth there's a heck of a lot still available...even too much at times!

I've grown used to using 12 noon charts as a compromise when t.o.b. is totally unknown. Can't remember why I did this - I must have read advice from some source long ago.

Twilight said...

mike (again) ~ Your PS comment went to spam as well! I wonder why this is happening. Are you using a different computer or location perhaps?

There's been no catchpa thingie today - for me anyway. Maybe that's something to do with it.

So solar chart is everything except house and angle positions, and exact Moon position?

unique_astrology said...

When you use a noon chart the Moon's position is only off by about 6 1/2 or 7 degrees as its daily motion is around 13 degrees or about 1 degree every 2 hours. Midnight 12 hours earlier = about 6 degrees back. Midnight 12 hours later = about 6 degrees ahead.

At first I was willing to accept the time of 2:27 for your chart but after revisiting my work this morning I think a time 20 minutes later is likely to be correct. Used 4 events but had to guesstimate times of events. Locations: Leeds, Bridlington, Dalhart, and Dunn Observatory in NM.

But things not always being what they seem in this notorious location, who can be sure of anything.

Only 2 events for Fred but the time of 2:20 pm seems to be a good fit.

I got the captcha.

Twilight said...

unique_astrology ~ Has someone been visiting the New Hat Shoppe?

Thanks, that sounds about right to me.
I suppose the main use of having an exact time of birth is to predict, and time, potential future events. That's something that I avoid doing these days - things in the world are worrying enough without adding into the mix any stuff that might or might not happen to moi, for good or ill. ;-)

unique_astrology said...

Screen name for about 15 years. Rarely look at my own chart.

Twilight said...

unique_astrology ~ Good name too!

unique_astrology said...

The comment was meant in relation to the link as the lead off story was about Prince Edward in Hull.

But things not always being what they seem in this notorious location, who can be sure of anything.

mike (again) said...

Re spam folder - No, I'm using the same computer, but I've had some connectivity problems...AT&T is visiting tomorrow morning to look at their connections outside. I had captchas with each of my previous comments and I'm pretty sure I'll have another with this comment.

Re solar chart - The chart can be set-up for the actual sunrise time or a chart with a known time of birth can be reconfigured to place the Sun on the ascendent (most software allows this option).

I have a 13*01' Sun in Scorpio, 6th house. A Sun-on-ascendant chart places my Sun on a 13*01' ascendent in Scorpio. An actual sunrise chart would place the Sun at 12*25' Scorpio on my day of birth). The chart can be equal house (2nd house cusp for me would be 13*01' Sagittarius, etc., or the houses can be Placidus or any house system selected. My Sun-on-ascendant chart is a sophisticated Sun-sign chart.

Look at Alfred Hitchcock's chart on Whitaker's post:
She states, "I have used Sunrise charts when clients are more concerned with personal and relationship issues: this is because the Ascendant/Descendant axis relates to I / Thou matters. If clients are more focused on career/direction, then I have used noon charts. This is because the Noon or Midheaven point, the highest point of the Sun in the sky, concerns a person’s direction and vocation."

Found this link while searching for a sunrise chart and thought it was interesting:
"Why is the twelfth house such a dark, secluded, house of doom and undoing when it is just above the horizon at the dawning of a new day?"

Twilight said...

unique_astrology ~ I haven't yet managed to access the link about Prince Edward and Hull - suspect it's not the Hull (UK) where I was born but the one in Va. I'm confused - but it's late, so not surprising. Will look again tomorrow.

Twilight said...

mike ~ Rescued latest comment from the spam file. Maybe Blogger is acting up today as well as your connection. Weather might be messing things up in places too.

Thanks for this extra info. I'll come back to it in the morning when the brain is clearer. :-)

Catchpa is back for me now too.

Robert Nicewander said...

It is the Hull where you were born.

Tranby Croft Manor House

Tranby Croft, now the home of Hull Collegiate School, was built in 1874. It’s famous for the being the site of the royal baccarat scandal in 1890, also known as the Tranby Croft affair, a British gambling scandal of the late 19th century involving the Prince of Wales—the future King Edward VII.

Baccarat Scandal, Soleste and Moroello, Ferdinand

Tranby Croft Manor House, Anlaby, East Yorkshire

An illegal card game at a stately British manor leads to a scandal that threatens a prince; a stunning Italian fortress provides the setting for a haunting tale of ill-fated love; and the shocking murder of an Austrian castle’s owner sparks one of the biggest global disasters of all time.

Twilight said...

Robert Nicewander :-)

Ah - Tranby Croft1 Thanks - yes that rings bells. Tranby is locally classed more as being in Anlaby than Hull - originally a village now more a suburb of Hull, I guess. I'd forgotten about that old scandal.

Twilight said...

mike (again) ~ Thanks again - I've read the pieces you provided.
Interesting points there to be kept in mind.

Probably due to the mist around my own birth time I've always relied more on planets in signs and aspects between them than any house interpretation (I've never felt 100% confident about the meanings attributed to houses apart from those near ascendant and MC). For me personally, the value of knowing exact birth time would be simply to establish exact ascending degree and exact degree of natal Moon. Nothing more than that really.
But that's just me - trying to keep it simple again. :-)

Vanilla Rose said...

I am fortunate to have been born in Scotland - my birth time is on my birth certificate. In England, they only do that for multiple births.

Twilight said...

Vanilla Rose ~ Good! You'd think the whole of Britain could get on the same page wouldn't you though!? :-)