Thursday, October 02, 2014

Not Yer Textbook Libra-type!

 Libra by Erté
Yesterday's post touching on Germany and World War II, as well as an exchange with commenter LB the other day about Sun signs, Moon signs etc. and astrological recognition factors in general, reminded me of a post I wrote years ago, in October 2008 to be exact. It has gathered a nice pile of views over the years, 10,646 at last count:

A Libran Exception: Irma Grese

There are some comments there too, including rather cool (not "cool") responses to one visitor.

Maybe current, 2014, visitors or commenters might have something to add, here, on the topic, either astrologically or in general?


Sonny Gianetti said...

Just from personal experience I can say that Libra's in general aren't the Peaches of the Zodiac bushel they are often made out to be.

Many are cruel, emotionally manipulative and far worse but I'll leave it there.. Some memories of Libra behavior are unbearable for me.

I read the 2008 post and the comments and I am not surprised at what I read.
Perhaps the annonymous commentor felt a need to defend a long lost family member, who knows. hmmm, not sure why I said that but, it feels right to me.

That war brought out the worst in lots of otherwise good people so one can only imagine what it allowed the already cruel to do.

mike said...

Perhaps the "anonymous" was none other than our own Dick Cheney...LOL. The USA has Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse, plus our farming-out torture to other nations that had lenient or non-existing penalties for torture. I suppose it is easy to become caught-up in the moment and excitement of it all...of extreme torture that is. Making the boss happy and receiving accolades for a job well done.

I was fortunate to have taken a Human Values class in college taught by Milton Rokeach. He was a pioneer in the field at that time. The Nazi movement was frequently discussed in his lectures. There are so many factors to consider when an individual or collective is required to make decisions about cooperation, safety, well being, and rewards, particularly if death is offered as penalty for non-cooperation. Most in the USA have supported our brutal regime of terror and torture in the name of freedom and democracy, and have supported other countries in their aspirations. The Bush-Cheney administration was full of slogans to the citizenry to instill a patriotic zest supporting torture ("either your fer us or agin us").

Most humans have a knack for selecting certain ethnic-racial differences to target with irrational hatred, which further allows irrational behavior toward the target. The treatment of African-Americans by Anglos, specially in the South, is really no different than Grese's inhumanity toward the Jewish.

Irma Grese's chart does have a Jupiter-Neptune square and as you noted, the largess of Jupiter in Scorpio can be nasty one, compounded by the fog and exaggeration of Neptune. LB may have comments about Grese's Dark Moon Lilith.

Human behavior, individually or collectively, never fails to disappoint me.

mike (again) said...

P.S. - I mentioned "The Sound of Music" in yesterday's post. The movie portrays how the citizens of Austria were enamored with Naziism. Captain von Trapp was one of the few that maintained integrity to the extent he was willing to risk his and his family's lives and well being. The locals succumbed to the politics to the extent they were willing to cause harm to their own. Irma Grese simply acted individually for the collective.

Twilight said...

Sonny ~ although Aquarius and Libra are both Air signs and are supposed to find easy harmony, I haven't always found this to be so. My mother (28 Sep) and first husband (27 Sep) are cases in point. Maturity brought Mum and I into better alignment, but there were many painful hiccups along the way. First husband didn't last long - enough said!

I've often puzzled over the sweet reputation the sign Libra has acquired. Its proximity to Scorpio, and Virgo might muddy sweet Libran air when personal planets are there, I guess. Moon and rising sign will modify things too - then background, education, experiences have to be added to the mix.

Twilight said...

mike ~ Yes, of course, circumstances in Nazi Germany were far from normal; that's something that has to be factored into strange outcomes of natal charts at that time. Few personalities are likely (I suspect) to remain "true to chart" when under such extreme pressure and fear or those in power. That'd be something interesting to research if sufficient data were available.

As I re-read my 2008 post I wondered about Via Combusta in relation to Grese's chart(Via covers 2nd half of Libra 1st half of Scorpio).
I think we've discussed it before - there are posts linked in the Label Cloud.

I agree that there have been comparable cruelties inflicted on others by people in other nations, USA and UK included - though not on the horrendous scale of the Holocaust, or anywhere near that.

LB said...

If Irma Grese did the things she was accused of (the comments from the linked piece seem to suggest there was some doubt?), then I think her astrology might help us have a better understanding of her lower nature.

No matter what signs are involved, Saturn-Venus-Sun square Pluto, with Jupiter in Scorpio, could potentially be a harsh combination - I think when looking at charts we can't tell from aspects whether or not the person has been a victim, perpetrator or both - *or* how a particular individual will choose to act on the energy except in retrospect. Someone else with this same chart might've become a victim's advocate or dedicated their life to making the world a more just and peaceful place by going against Nazi doctrine, either openly or in secret .

I know a set of twins born just minutes apart, with extremely similar charts, who've taken very different paths.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think we can ever judge (or know) a person's character based on an *anonymous* chart. Any sign is capable of extreme cruelty. I've met some Libras I don't much trust.:( And some Aquarians who are not humanitarians.

Twilight said...

LB ~ Whether Grese was guilty as charged - of everything charged - will now never be established to the satisfaction of all. She was undoubtedly guilty of some of it though.

I agree that just about anyone, whenever they were born, could be driven to act cruelly in certain extreme circumstances. Living in Nazi Germany might be seen as such an extreme circumstance.

I think Irma Grese is a good example of why it's easy to get the wrong ideas about astrology in general.

I've come to believe that, though astrology can work, it doesn't always work to the extent some would like to believe it does.

We can usually find "excuses" for how things turn out in hindsight - that is done here - we found possibilities to account for Grese's seeming descent into the dark side.
The list of Libra keywords has to be completely discounted though, and she didn't have just Sun in Libra, she had Sun, Venus (Libra's ruler) and Saturn - triple dose.

I agree on some Aquarius Suns being as against "type" as Libra Suns, mike mentioned Dick Cheney, for instance. Aquarius does have co-rulers though, which could account for two distinct types within the sign. Maybe Libra should have a modern, or secondary, ruler?

There's another post along similar lines to the Irma Grese one, about Lenny Bruce:

mike (again) said...

Not the best of early years for Irma.

From Wiki:

"... In 1936, her mother committed suicide.

Grese left school in 1938 at the age of fourteen, owing to a combination of a poor scholastic aptitude, bullying by classmates, and a fanatical preoccupation with the League of German Girls (Bund Deutscher Mädel), a Nazi female youth organization, of which her father disapproved. Among other casual jobs, she worked as an assistant nurse in the sanatorium of the SS for two years and unsuccessfully tried to find an apprenticeship as a nurse, after which she worked as a dairy helper."

LB said...

Twilight ~ We need to remember Saturn doesn't automatically lend itself to developing integrity and a wise inner authority related to whatever sign it's placed in. Saturn can also be about fear, oppression and restriction.

Saturn in Libra can either enhance or deny typical Libran function (justice, beauty, compromise, relationships), probably (or generally) depending on free will and how someone chooses to exercise it - to the extent that they're able.

In a worst case scenario, there could be a severe perversion (square Pluto) of the desire nature (Venus) that takes form in a cold/cruel materialism (Saturn) that makes lampshades out of lovely female skin (Venus in Libra) in order to satisfy thwarted relationship needs *and* the need to please (Libra) authority (Saturn). And all under the guise of being for the sake of the homeland (Pluto in Cancer).

How horrible. Human beings are capable of such extremes of beauty and cruelty.

Another person born at the same time and with the same chart may have used their challenges and gifts in a positive way. Many Germans risked their lives by secretly helping those who were being persecuted.

mike ~ Considering that close natal square to Pluto, I'm not surprised Irma Grese was bullied. She then had the choice to become a powerful bully herself or to act powerfully on behalf of others in similar situations, out of empathy and compassion.

I have a Mars-Pluto square myself.

Twilight said...

mike ~ No - a difficult start, and a very difficult environment in which to remain level-headed, at her age, I suppose. Even so, the extremes to which she went, eventually, are way beyond what could be reasonably be rationalised due to those reasons.

Twilight said...

LB ~ Thanks for your additional pointers.

Well, yes, as was portrayed in the movie featured on Tuesday, many ordinary Germans were just like ordinary English or American people, humane, confused but trying to make sense of it all, and often, in the process putting themselves at risk.

It was the rather broad fringe of the other type who brought about the dreadful events we can and should not ever forget - and in my opinion should not try to hard to justify their actions.

LB said...

Twilight ~ Based on your review, "The Book Thief" is going on my movie list. Hopefully I'll get a chance to see it very soon.

This whole conversation about the astrology of those who commit inhumanely cruel acts kind of reminds me of the movie "Gattaca".

Just as there's more to human potential than can be determined by "designer genes", I don't think it's possible or wise to think we can identify evil (or any other significant character trait) *solely* by looking at someone's chart - which isn't to say that's what you or anyone else here is doing.:) Much as I appreciate what a great tool astrology can be, I wouldn't ever want to pigeon-hole someone's potential.

Instead, I think the only way to truly know someone is by observing their "fruits", if you know what I mean. Even then, we only know them as they are in the moment, not who they might someday become. Which isn't an excuse for wrongdoing.

LB said...

Adding how anyone who commits the kind of horrible crimes described in your post needs to be locked away somewhere without the potential for ever harming anyone else ever again during their lifetime.

Sonny Gianetti said...

my mother is also sept. 28.

you have my sincere sympathy- glad you found a way to deal and make peace.

as close as it can be done without a courtroom and judge, I divorced mine. I wished her peace, then and now.

Twilight said...

LB ~ Well....what I had in mind back in 2008 was to show that relying too much on zodiac sign keywords (and Sun sign alone) can be very misleading. With ever more information available online, there's still ubiquitous reliance on expecting "a Libra" or "a Taurus" or "a Leo" etc. to be reasonably true to cookbook/textbook.
We aren't, they aren't, nobody is. I thought IG was a good example, that's how I came to write that post, not for any political or historic reason.

I agree with your remarks. :-)

Twilight said...

Sonny ~ Coincidence eh?! It wasn't always easy. I try now to remember only the best parts, and there were some, quite a lot in fact, over her long lifetime.

LB said...

I agree, Twilight - IG was and is a good example. The title of your post says it all.:)

mike (again) said...

"There's some of the worst in the best of us and there's some of the best in the worst of us."
Attributable to several authors

mike (again) said...

Re Twilight's 1:46 PM comment to me.

Twilight, something happened to that girl. Perhaps she was simply born evil and corrupt, but I suspect her childhood contained more horrors than the Wiki quote infers. Time and circumstance colluded into the "perfect storm."

Never know though...remember the movie, "The Bad Seed"?

Anonymous said...

... Somewhere, on a lonely street.

"Hey boss, dere's no boithtime for dat German broad?"
- "No Mugsy, it's hard to do things without all the tools."
- "You be kind to the nice twilight lady."
"Okay boss."

"Hey, maybe that Grese gal was umm ... umm psi, psi ..."
- "Psychotic?"
"Yeah, dat's it boss!"
- "We don't know, Mugsy"
- "We just don't know ..."


Twilight said...

mike ~ I don't think I saw "The Bad Seed", but I know the genre..."The Omen" was one of the first I think.

A lot of her fellow countrymen were caught in that "perfect storm" too, she was one of many - unfortunately for many others.

Twilight said...

Anon (Kidd) ~ LOL!
Hi dere!

Yes, the rising sign and angles could bring things into much clearer focus.
Psychotic's a possibility too, or sociopathic or... Born at another time, in another place, she might just have pulled wings off butterflies.