Saturday, February 15, 2014

The Week's Leftovers ~ Race, LSD, HSBC.

I mentioned a few days ago, to my husband, that I was thinking of writing a blog post about possible reasons why black individuals, on the whole, surpass most white individuals in certain spheres (a) boxing, some athletics, many sports and (b)certain styles of dancing (especially by males). I had my solution ready, I thought: i.e. genetically, black races have more muscular strength and durability passed down via DNA, and more innate rhythm than white races. Husband surprised me by his response: "Good luck with that, but be ready for accusations of racism."

I'd be complimenting people of the black races (not only African Americans, mind you), not offending them for goodness sake! What is wrong in defining races by their talents? Could I comment that Jewish people, on the whole, seem to surpass in business, science, legal and entertainment spheres - and what talented lot they are, and I often wonder how that came about. Am I being racist? I'm being sincerely curious. White people, in general (which covers a lot of ground and many nationalities) tend to have a modicum of talent in most areas, often defined by their nationality's stereotype.


I do not understand the racism thing which causes paranoia in the USA. I get that there are some remaining bigots and horrible throw-backs to darker times. They should be approached with all the contempt they deserve. Surely that doesn't mean we ALL have to tread with fairy feet because of them? The best and only solution to end racism is to consider all ethnicities on the the same level: as human beings, discuss all in similar terms, discuss their differences, their talents, their faults without fear of being accused of racism.

While watching an old film on Turner Movie Channel this week husband spotted a price tag in one scene, marked "3d" -

"What does 3 D mean?"

"Threepence, you know - that little yellow-coloured coin, the 'thruppenny bit' ".


"Three pence, three pennies."

"D = a penny - why?"

"Ahem...let's see if I can remember! LSD - you know - pounds, shillings and pence, British currency before decimalisation in the 1970s. L=pounds S=shillings D = Pence - danged if I can remember why though!"

Looked it up - ah yes, now I remember it well!
£sd (sometimes pronounced, and occasionally written, L.s.d.) is the popular name for the pre-decimal currencies once common throughout Europe, especially in the United Kingdom, which was one of the last to change, as well as some other Commonwealth countries. The abbreviation originates from the Latin currency denominations librae, solidi, and denarii. In the U.K. these are today referred to as pounds, shillings, and pence (pence being the plural of penny).

This system originated in the classical Roman Empire. It was re-introduced in Western Europe by Charlemagne and was the standard for many centuries across the continent. The system was in fact used in much of the British Empire until 1971. Under the British system, there were 12 pence in a shilling and 20 shillings, or 240 pence, in a pound. A penny was subdivided into four farthings until 31 December 1960 (when they ceased to be legal tender) and, until 31 July 1969, two halfpennies.

HSBC UK & me - all done, all gone! A while back I mentioned in comments that I'd had trouble being able to close my UK credit card account with HSBC due to a small outstanding amount which defied clearance for a variety of reasons. After e-mails, phone calls, letters and frustrations to boiling point I eventually received a phone call this week from a very nice lady at HSBC UK, apologising profusely for the absurdity of the situation, and telling me she had marked the outstanding 6 pounds 61 pence still outstanding on my credit card as now cleared. Ahhhhh! There are living, breathing, warm-blooded humans with common sense at the end of some communication channels after all. That was in the morning; when the mail arrived the same afternoon I received three letters from HSBC UK: two more boilerplate warnings about my non-payment of 6 pounds 61 pence, and one letter telling me that my credit limit had been cut in half - this in spite of my three or four, or five communications since October telling them I wished to close all accounts, including that attached to my credit card.

Earlier in the week I was at a loss to understand why a post of mine from June 2010 was getting beaucoup hits, day after day, this one: Lena Horne, Susan Hayward: Astrological Twins I checked around news outlets to see whether there was talk of an upcoming movie involving one of the subjects. No, nothing. It wasn't until I noticed, among a list of keywords involved in visits to the blog, mention of one Susan Agar. I clicked on the name and saw to my surprise, at the top of the Google page about Ms Agar (the daughter of Shirley Temple - her mother died this week) some thumbnail photos supposedly all of Susan Agar. One of the photos was of Susan Hayward, I had used it in my archived post. So, anyone clicking on it under the impression it was Shirley Temple's daughter, or Shirley Temple herself, got a surprise. Hits on the post are still coming too, from countries all over the world.


mike said...

I think "whites" excel at the dirty X gene...the survival-at-all-costs-including-skullduggery gene. The problem with labeling by genetic heritage is what's omitted. Your example of athletically gifted blacks MIGHT be inferred that they are not so gifted in the mental arena, which is patently false. Environmental factors, such as not having an equal socioeconomic opportunity, can be over-generalized to include many negative stereotypes, particularly by individuals and groups wishing to denigrate and form opposition.

The Brits have remained with a currency system unique to themselves, much like the USA has remained on a weight, volume, and measurement system not in tune with other industrialized nations. It probably took you a while, Twilight, to adapt to our system. I have a science background and I certainly appreciate the metric system...everything is so scalable and logical.

HSBC recently settled their Mexico cartel and foreign terrorist money-laundering suit. They have to pay one-fifth of their annualized profit (paltry!) and their management has to forgo their annual bonuses this year...oh, boo hoo, sob. If an individual were prosecuted for the same crime, they would forfeit ALL cash and property and would spend their remaining life in prison.

You are learning how to attract the internet crowd to your website, Twilight! You mentioned not long ago that you were receiving excessive hits on the Linda Lovelace post. Attract random hits by always including a little something of interest (usually sexual if you want major hits). I'm often surprised when I perform a search and I link to a website that has absolutely nothing in common with my search, though in the summary of the link it does indicate correlation.

Twilight said...

mike ~ But I wasn't trying to label by genetic heritage though, just pointing out an often shared trait within a certain group, and one not necessarily limited to the USA. How could that possibly imply that the same people would be less gifted in other ways? This is what I dislike and cannot understand. It's as though some people search for reasons to keep the black/white divide going by seeking or manufacturing problems where they do not exist. I know there are problems and inequalities, not arguing about that. If everyone keeps bowing and scraping to the kind of mindset that wants to find problems outside of those specific inequalities in the USA, problems will remain and could even grow worse.


The weights, measures and volume thing here still confuses me at times. I recall trying to convince my husband that a pint in the UK is 20 fluid ounces...
I think in the US a liquid pint is only 16 fluid ounces. He wouldn't believe meat first!
I flounder through weights, measures, C/F temps etc etc - still have to keep looking up answers on the net.


I don't deliberately try to attract hordes of "hitters", mike.
I usually just write what interests me. If it doesn't interest others, so be it - if it does - fine! :-) The Linda Lovelace post came about because I was curious about her natal chart, this latest oddity has come about due to a Google error muddle: Agar/Hayward.

I'm not certain what good the hits can do, other than boost stats. Not sure whether that will affect the mysterious Google algorithm whereby blogs are given Google rankings. This blog used to be a "4", then they changed the algorithm and it became a "3", usually thought of now as "average". Blogs, at least small independent ones, are dropping like flies these days due to Facebook's incursions. I'm happy with an "average #3". :-)

Nailah D'arcy said...

I been following your blog for awhile now, and I'll make it known, it was not your Linda Lovelace post, that brought me here. While I do appreciate women in the sex industry. One of the oldest professions. Some one has to do it.

On your first topic of choice, which happens to be race.

I'll admit, I caught myself saying "Jewish people are very smart", but its true; however, I know there are some that don't meet the status quo, lol. It is stereotyping, and it may be wrong. Nevertheless, some do fit that ideal.

To be quite frank, I think some individuals take it on the stereotypical image, because it's socially accepted. But then don't wanted it pointed out.

Race has been blown out of proportion. People have to come to terms, if we were all the same color, will eventually hate each other/separate by, hair color, height, weight, classism (Which is inevitable, it'll never go away) etc; something stupid, and when you think about it, you start realizing, human beings are very shallow.

Doesn't matter, people make a killing of some failing, and little successes. Very cynical, but its the truth. Nonetheless, I agree with you we should appreciate the talents of people, even if it's stereotyping.

By the way, great blog.


LB said...

Twilight ~ Genetics, body-type, environment, culture - I guess they all play a role in terms of our gifts.

I grew up in a neighborhood with lots of Black folks. In the elementary school I attended, I was usually one of maybe two, sometimes three White kids in class, there were usually a couple of Japanese kids too. There were also a few Latino kids in our neighborhood along with a sprinkling of kids from various other ethnic groups.

We all went to school together, played basketball, football and dodge-ball together, jump-roped, climbed the jungle gym and danced together. We also roller skated a bit, though I have to admit, growing up not many of us rode bikes or played baseball or softball - they just weren't that popular in my school or neighborhood. For a while, sprinting (racing short distances) became popular.

Two of the the female friends I grew up with (one White and one Latina) were very talented basketball players who played all throughout school. The White friend even went on to referee for a time as an adult.

I don't recall any of my Black female friends being very talented at basketball, though there were several very gifted Black male players. I'm pretty sure at least one of them went on to coach.

We also had a couple of outstanding football players - my brother (who is White) was one of them. Several years ago, when I ran into someone my brother went to school with, this former classmate commented to me how my brother was the most amazing athlete he'd ever seen and wondered if he'd gone on to play professionally - which he hadn't, though at one time he dreamed of it and is still in great shape.

As far as dancing goes, some of my Black friends could dance and some couldn't. I could. About 10 years ago, while I was still working at the school, I helped some of our students with some choreography and one of them (who was Black) looked at me, astounded and said I danced just like Beyonce - LOL! The point is you never know. I was also one of the fastest sprinters in my neighborhood (Mars in Gemini square Pluto), I could beat all of the girls and most of the boys - the two boys I couldn't beat (one of them a friend to this day) happened to be Black.

Anyway, if my brother and I had grown up in some other neighborhood where kids didn't play football, dance and sprint, who knows if we'd have ever discovered those particular talents. The sister I found (who was put up for adoption and raised by Jewish parents) didn't grow up doing any of those things, nor did she develop an interest in or talent for them as an adult.

I also have to admit, academics and creativity were NOT as valued (or nurtured) in my neighborhood - the teachers tried (our elementary school had some very dedicated teachers as well as some *great* programs designed to expose and challenge us), but it was what it was. We all went home after school to our respective homes with different values.

It wasn't until I got transferred to another (public) school that I found my intellectual gifts had some value in the world. The values of the cultures we grow up surrounded by definitely have an impact on us. For that reason, some of the parents in my neighborhood (of all colors) sent their kids to private school. We didn't play with those kids as much.

I will say, people with long legs and lean bodies make better long-distance runners than those of us with shorter, stronger legs and more fast twitch muscle fibers - just as taller folks have an edge when it comes to sports like basketball. Body type makes a difference.

Twilight said...

Nailah D'Arcy ~ Hi there! Thanks for popping in and commenting, and for your kind remark. :-)

I agree that stereotyping can be seen as part of what I've written re race. Stereotyping does need to have some element of truth within it to survive, but not every single person within the relevant group will match stereotype, though I do think the potential would be there to do so in most cases.

We'd have to be deaf and blind if we didn't notice how talented in particular spheres many (not all) people of Jewish background are, and have been.

We, as onlookers, notice those, whether black, white or any shade between, who excel, that's what helps build a stereotype, I guess.

Human beings can display a very dark side - that's true. I think it has been said on this blog before, from time to time. Part of our DNA, maybe in the darkest of dark ages human needed it to survive. Now we have to make the best of it we can, and not allow it to surface too often.

Twilight said...

LB ~ Yes, of course - I don't disagree. There are many ingredients other than race figuring into varied gifts and talents. As in astrology, when we say there's always more more to consider than the signs and planets. :-)

I think my idea was not that only black races can excel in certain sports, dancing or whatever, but that when they do, when they have the drive and inspiration and training, they really can become great, and noticeably so.

The stereotyping joke: "dancing like a white man" is true a lot of the time, but not always - Astaire, Kelly, and others unknown to the public, dancing in discos and dance halls all over the world must have proved that to be not 100% accurate, but again, when a black guy is inspired to be a certain style of dancer - he's likely to excel....I think so anyway.

mike (again) said...

The racial distinction shares some analogy with sexism. Females can do anything a male can in today's world, and many men are performing what were once female occupations or interests. The X and Y genes only imply physical characteristics, primarily for reproduction.

Twilight said...

mike (again)~ I see what you're getting at. Physical characteristics do count for more than reproduction though. Muscular strength is more often found in the male than the female is it not? (Whatever colour the skin). Females can train to reach muscular strength up to a certain level, but will be less likely to attain high levels some males are able to attain. Therefore, certain occupations will always be more likely to be carried out by males. And vice versa: females, or most females, have a more delicate touch, smaller fingers/hands than most males so could prove to be more suitable for certain jobs due to to that particular physical feature.

Where neither requirement applies though, it'll be a matter of the sexes competing on equal footing (or it ought to be).

LB said...

Twilight ~ I think truly talented people, regardless of their ethnicity, are always more likely to stand out given the opportunity.

Take African American physicist, Neil deGrasse Tyson. Or going back in time, African Americans Booker T. Washington and George Washington Carver. None of these men became famous for their athletic or dancing skills - which isn't to say they didn't possess other talents. But if they did, they were neither defined nor limited by them.

I'm also not sure I understand your point about Black (I'm assuming you meant African Americans?) dancers excelling since there are exceptionally talented dancers from other ethnic backgrounds as well. Even if you're only looking at the more athletic styles popular in our part of the world, it would still be very tough to compare styles or dancers when there are so *many* talented folks out there.

The point of my comment was that most people see what they want to see. And we sometimes overlook the roles culture, environment, even our families play in shaping our gifts and potential - regardless of our ethnic heritage or color of our skin. This is one of those times when we may have to agree to disagree, Twilight.:)

LB said...

If you've ever watched "Dancing with the Stars" then you know *excel*lent dancers come in all different colors!

Sabina said...

When I was younger, Science said that Blacks were at significantly higher risk of affliction by sickle cell anemia; a quick glance at Wiki just now suggests that inference was correct, but our signification might have been wrong.
'Sickle-cell disease occurs more commonly among people whose ancestors lived in tropical and sub-tropical sub-saharan regions where malaria is or was common. Where malaria is common, carrying a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait) confers a fitness. Specifically, humans with one of the two alleles of sickle-cell disease show less severe symptoms when infected with malaria.'
This means I, a White person, could carry the gene, as my Caribbean heritage extends over 350 years.
I believe natal physical traits can and do profoundly influence our skills and abilities; altho, I think we also recognize that our 'racial' traits are the product of evolutionary adaptation; but, otherwise, I think the discussion devolves to the old Nature vs Nurture discourse.
White men can't jump is, of course, bogus nonsense. The best basketball player in high school was a White boy, who just happened to be 7'3"....
I think the Nurture plays a gigantic sociocultural role in our fields of endeavour and success. Jewish people have been persecuted and lived in diaspora so it makes perfect sense that they support one another, that they carry small precious objects as forms of barter - imagine a chesterfield on a camel! Anyway, the impetus to education in enduring professions, and so on, are all explicable in terms of business acumen.
We have some really hilarious multi-culti comedians here in Canada and I can think of at least two fellows who make fun of their respective Chinese and east Indian fathers for being hard bargainers: the outcome of living in ancient trading civilizations.
Black people in Canada and the US are disadvantaged because they are discriminated against,(as are Women, but don't get me started). The fields where they achieved their earliest success were, it seems to me, those in which the slightest crack appeared, and which, I suppose one could argue, were in forms of entertainment, where they would pose the least risk to the White Establishment. I realize there has been a great surge in the Black middle class in America in my lifetime, but our prisons here still hold an inordinate percentage of young Black men (and even more Aboriginals of both genders).
This CBC item of a few days ago is apposite of the points you raise.

D is for denarius ;P Of course, us Canucks enjoy the triple pleasure of having been raised on old British systems of measurement, having to adapt those to the American system, and then having 'converted' to the Metric System. Phew! (My fondest wish is that the Yanks would 'go' Metric, but what it would cost in LSD probs makes it unlikely anytime soon.)

Re the capital B Banks, Frederick Woodruff posted a link to a doc and it's worth a watch (under an hour). I certainly got a few sardonic laughs out of it but the content was not new to me, apart from the zany insistence that Ayn Rand was the cause of it all. (Why do they hate Ayn Rand down there? Her books were just 'In' with the uni crowd back when we all read all of Hermann Hesse too. Every age has its 'cult' books.) Methinks the filmmaker should have followed Ariadne's thread back to Reagan's Minos.

What Mike says about often being surprised about some search links he's made reminds me of using too broad search terms when I first got on the internet: as a sometime miniaturist, I searched for 'dollhouse' and certainly got more than I bargained for. I honestly had no idea!

Twilight said...

LB ~ I truly am not disagreeing with anything you've written on this. I originally made a quite narrow observation, that's all, expressing something as I see it. While expanding on it it we seem to have come to an impasse. :-)

Re "black" no, as I said. I was not referring only to African Americans, but to all black races.

I don't watch Dancing With the Stars, but, again, as I've said, I haven't indicated that white or brown people cannot dance and be good at it, only that if inspired some members of black races have particularly strong inbuilt sense of rhythm which is a great asset to some types of dance - and all musical endeavour in fact. I stand by this first, fairly narrow observation.

Twilight said...

Sabina ~ Thanks for your interesting contribution to this conversation. :-)
When my original, narrowly based, thought is expanded it gets complex and open to all kinds of different points of view and covers a lot of ground, too much ground for all to agree upon I fear.

Thanks for the links - I shall explore them in the morning.

Twilight said...

If anyone's still around.....
Irrespective of whether my idea about black races and sport/dancing was a poor, bad or debatable one - could this kind of discussion be viewed as racist - or is it merely racial?

mike (again) said...

Hey, Twilight...I commend you for presenting various perspectives and discussing these in your comments with us. As you always state, your website is for learning, or at minimum, presenting an array of interpretations. I don't always agree with your views and there are times that, at the end of the day, I realize that we both are on the same page, yet approached the subject from opposite points. I appreciate your offering a forum for evaluating, deciphering, and objectifying topics. Many things discussed in your daily posts do not have an inherently correct or errant content...they are opinions. When we both agree on a topic, the very fact that it is a topic, is because someone else differs.

To answer your question, I think your post is both racial and racist, but not in a derogatory fashion. Once a racial subject is presented, it contains a racist counterpoint, intended or not. It's similar to discussing our black president...he's our president, whether he's black or purple...our previous white presidents didn't require the "white" preceding the word "president". Obama is's just as correct to say he's our white president, too, but that isn't the choice selected for him.

The subject of race and stereotyping by any subjective means is a valuable discussion in moving all of us forward toward accepting each individual for themselves. Applicable to so many stereotypes each of us maintains toward race, sex, sexuality, nationality, income levels, politics, literacy, addictions, illegitimacy, etc.

mike (again) said...

Sabina - I do perform more generalized searches and I do anticipate an occasional mishap with the consequent results. My more succinct search inquiries can contain one or more inconsequential results, yet the summary under the link indicates a direct keyword match.

I operate a website with e-commerce and I'm inundated with offers to increase site hits, for a fee of course. Each search engine company offers this by simply promoting my site to the first several pages (top of page one, if I pay more) according to my site keywords. There are any number of independent companies as providers, too...there are several methods utilized, but "linking" other websites to my website is the best option and these links provide additional keywords.


"Google's use of links to rank a website has at least 2 side effects on the Internet. Firstly, people seeking to rank higher have engaged companies to furnish them with zillions of links. Those companies presumably set up a whole bunch of sites for the sole purpose of linking to their clients. Secondly, as a response to this, Google has retaliated (and continues to do so) by discrediting links from such "link networks" as well as penalising the sites that pay them for the service.

It's apparently possible to run afoul of this even if you have no intention of buying links. For example, if you are not careful, and have engaged a search engine optimisation ("SEO") company to improve your site's performance on Google, and they use a link network, your site may inadvertantly get caught in the crossfire of this ongoing war between the link networks and Google."

I see the inadvertent search result as inevitable, but perhaps you know a way around this, Sabina?

BTW - I use Google Scholar for my academic searches, which completely eliminates the commercial sites. I don't have this concern when I use Google Scholar.

Twilight said...

mike (again) ~ Thank you for your kind words. :-)

I now hardly ever think about what shade is the president's skin. That was always irrelevant anyway wasn't it, except to the Dem's PR department?

Race, racial, racist, the words all carry deeper meaning in the USA than in some other nations. It's due mainly, I suppose, to ....well, not necessarily the slavery issue because that also went on in many countries.....but because of the segregation era which went on for so long, so cruelly here, and which has less of a counterpart in other countries (South Africa excepted).

It's a ticklish thing to be talking about, but unless people do talk about it, the subject gets smothered and liable to fester.

Twilight said...

mike ~ Blogger's spam filter had mistakenly put your post addressed to Sabina in the spam bin - I've pulled it out now. :-)

LB said...

Twilight ~ I see now. You're talking about something different from what I originally thought. My first comments addressed cultural and environmental differences, not racial ones.

Based on that, in answer to your latest question about whether this discussion is racist - other than skin tone, eye color and maybe a few other things, I don't believe there's much difference between the "races" the way you mean, since we're all part of the HUMAN RACE.

I'm not saying your observations were meant to be derogatory, I just think it's limiting and inaccurate to make certain generalization.

As far as things like strength, agility, rhythm and grace, I'd think if you go back far enough, everyone's ancestors hunted and performed ceremonial dances.

This article is pretty interesting:

Here's an excerpt:

"There are no genetic characteristics possessed by all Blacks but not by non- Blacks; similarly, there is no gene or cluster of genes common to all Whites but not to non-Whites. One’s race is not determined by a single gene or gene cluster, as is, for example, sickle cell anemia. Nor are races marked by important differences in gene frequencies, the rates of appearance of certain gene types. The data compiled by various scientists demonstrates, contrary to popular opinion, that intra-group differences exceed inter-group differences. That is, greater genetic variation exists within the populations typically labeled Black and White than between these populations. This finding refutes the supposition that racial divisions reflect fundamental genetic differences."

Twilight said...

LB ~ Thanks - interesting article, which goes against some of my own ideas, but then I'm probably wrong.
However glancing through the comments under the article I noticed something more in line with my thoughts, though far more detailed and probably much better informed too:

I'll copy parts of the very long comment by "Miville" 26 May 2013 at 9.58am ~

Blacks, Whites and East Asians should be called groups rather than races. They do exist for sure far beyond mere behavioural programming, but there is one very little-discussed fact of genetics : not only the skin tone difference between African negroes and Nordic whites, but nearly all the other typical traits of negritude, such as the thick lips and skin tissues, and also some psychological ones such as a greater connection between sexuality and emotion, are dependent upon only six pair of alleles that can change at random or under some external influences throughout life as well as be inherited in the more normal mendelian fashion...........

All human types have a negro version that can be obtained through the change of only six alleles, and vice-versa all negro types have a pale version. East asian mongoloid people also have a negro version so to speak that are actually the Australids and also the Indian Dravidians and the Veddas of the Dekkan, as well as the Papus and the negritos of Philippines. The mongoloid type is also dependent, relatively to the white, to a very small number of alleles. It may be that in the near future one will be able to change racial group at will by very straightforward superficial genetic modifications as can be induced naturally : this might be the real demise of racism, when it becomes a pure esthetic choice to be discussed in beauty salons and art galleries rather than in ideological academies and political offices, although laboratories might have a greater say than ever.

The lower mean IQ of Blacks is true to some extent but can be easily explained by their superior sensibility to music and biological waves generally speaking : it is so great an interest and also a convenient mean to manipulate others when you are endowed with such a talent while very young that the temptation is great to neglect other realms of human power and also some aspect of human morality : the same can be observed among musical prodigies who quite often remain spoiled brats in other respects, and also with some white people such as the Irish who also share such an openness to sound and magic resulting in the relative neglect of architectural-like aspects of life and loss of power over economic destiny.

But in order for intellectual aptitudes to be rightfully compared you have to compare the performances of individuals who have an equal liking for the discipline on which the test is based. If you were to compare not all blacks and whites but only those whites and blacks who for instance are really interested in electricity or statistics, it turns out that the mathematical aptitude gaps are greatly reduced or just vanish. Less Blacks are interested in mathematics mostly due to the fact they are interested in more esthetic or religious actitivities first and foremost as soon as they can afford leisure, but certain small very Black communities such as the Dogon of Mali and the Ibo of Nigeria do have a mathematical inclination surpassing that of most Whites. You can make yourself the experiment of talking to many Blacks having in principle sub-standard test results, who who have both a remarkable understanding of all novel ideas with a very interesting conversation about them as can be imagined only among intellectuals among Whites, and a practical resourcefulness in many difficult situations, whereas the Whites with the same sub-standard levels will be dullards and dunces.

LB said...

There's also this comment left by "human being" after the article I linked to. It pretty much sums up my own thoughts:

"Emotional answers to a simple question only give subjective responses. There is but one race – The Human Race. Yes there are many ethnic groups just like there are many types of trees or fish in the seas. But a tree is still a tree a fish is still a fish a person is a person."

I wonder, Twilight, if you've considered how in order for a particular race (or group) to be judged naturally superior in any one area (other than in their ability to withstand certain environments) all other groups (and individuals within those groups) must naturally be *inferior*.

Maybe framing it in this way makes it clearer how limiting and potentially harmful this perspective can be.

Twilight said...

LB ~ Two ways of seeing the same picture I guess.

Yes, I considered that thought, cast it aside because the "superior" thing is far from what I had in mind at the start of this. I haven't said that someone of some race is "superior" just because they might inherit natural traits which enable them to be great at some endeavour, if they have a wish to be, and have an interest in pursuing it. That doesn't exclude other people from different groups from attaining similar levels of excellence if they too have similar enthusiasms.

I simply do not see my thoughts as potentially harmful, LB, because I do not believe it's wrong to identify inherited or genetic traits and differences among racial groups. I find it wrong to deny them in fact.

We shall, once again have to agree to disagree.

LB said...

Fair enough, Twilight.:) I agree, it's best to leave it be. This whole conversation seems divisive anyway - I'd much rather focus on things that unite us. No offense intended.