I'm not completely convinced about the validity of such charts, or of any chart representing an inanimate entity. If there is going to be a chart to represent a country though, it ought to reflect the "feel" of the country in question, even if placements don't coincide exactly with historically important events. So, concentrating only on national characteristics, what outstanding and necessary features would I look for in a chart for the USA?
1. First: Aquarius and/or Uranus ought to be emphasised. The birth of the USA was an Aquarian/Uranian event. The establishment of the Republic is sometimes referred to as "The Great Experiment" - an effort to provide government of the people, by the people, for the people. Whether or not it has worked out as planned, it was a very Aquarian/Uranian vision and proposition. From days of the early pioneers, people of the USA have displayed a determination to create change (Uranus) of one kind or another in their own lives or the lives of others, not always for the good, it has to be said! Aquarius and Uranus are not necessarily forces for good.
2. Sagittarius/Jupiter should have fairly prominent placing. Excess, over-indulgence, "bigness", exaggeration, hyperbole are all recognisable in the overall character of this country, to me as a relative outsider, anyway. Mustn't forget religion, which is also the province of Jupiter/Sagittarius. Many of the original settlers were fleeing their own countries to find religious freedom; religion has been, and still is, for good or ill, an important part of this nation's character.
3. Leo ought to feature in the chart. Leo leads, and the USA thinks of itself as "world leader".
4. Mars should feature: military might, and the will to fight, has been present from the Revolutionary War which spawned the USA, to current debacles in the Middle East, with many between.
All the 4 July 1776 charts have, to my mind, too much emphasis on Cancer (their Sun's position). The same applies to the 2 July chart, which I'd considered a reasonable choice in the past. I really don't see the USA's character in any way Cancerian.
The Signing of the Constitution chart has Sun in Virgo, also inappropriate for the USA, in my view.
The best match I've found is the David Solte 1777 chart:
"David Solte's Presentation of the U.S. chart, data given in San Diego Astrological Society "The Uranian," May 1993, time rectified. He used the minutes of the Continental Congress to narrow down the passage of the Articles of Confederation to a few hours between 11:00 am and 2:00 pm on Nov. 15, 1777, when they were meeting in York, PA. Solte then rectified the chart to 12:46 pm Local Mean Time for the date and time when the Articles of Confederation became effective. The Declaration of Independence had declared that America was a separate entity from Great Britain, but it was not until the Confederation was established that the U.S. became a group of states united under one government.
Quite a few astrologers find that this chart works well for following the fortunes of the US government and the nation as a whole."
(Chart copied from Astrodatabank).
No single chart exactly fits my own opinion of a national personality chart for the USA. David Solte's 1777 chart comes near.
[Edited version of a 2008 post]
I've mentioned in prior posts that I tend to believe Trump's time of birth is about an hour earlier based on anecdotal evidence listed at astrotheme.com, which places his Asc in mid-Leo. Trump proffers the Leonian stereotype. His much-used 29+* Leo Asc places most of Virgo in his first house...I just don't see the Virgo qualities in his demeanor. Likewise for Clinton...there's anecdotal evidence that she has a tob around midnight, placing her Mars-Pluto conjunction in the 12th very close to the Asc, with Saturn on the Asc in the 1st house. I believe those placements fit her well. A nice thing about astrology (or religion) is that I can believe whatever I like to suit my purposes...LOL.
ReplyDeleteThe natal chart for the USA, as you indicate, is up for grabs. I do believe in mundane astrology for events, with an astrological vibration set-up between the planetary positions and the inauguration-incorporation of human activities, against the transits extant. Astrologer Raymond Merriman has made financial astrology his career and has been extremely successful timing the markets based on his forecasts. He uses the natal charts of the USA, other countries, the Federal Reserve Board, the NY Stock Exchange, et al, in his forecasting. He's won awards and recognition for his accuracy in timing market reversals and trends.
I prefer to use the SOLAR chart, July 4th, 1776, for the USA and favor the Sibley natal chart. The Sibley chart was recognized for it's placement of transiting Pluto crossing the Asc and transiting Saturn crossing the Dsc concurrent to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the USA. Whether using the solar or natal chart for July 4, 1776, the planetary aspects are the same, only the house positions change. Much has been written about those aspects, so I won't repeat here. I strongly favor the cardinal, Cancer Sun, particularly with the cardinal, Saturn square.
Our transiting Uranus-Pluto square of the past several years has correlated to many global changes, with many of the changes originating in the USA. This transiting Uranus-Pluto square forms a grand-square with solar-Sibley, natal Sun square Saturn. Transiting Pluto is about to move stationary direct at 15* Capricorn, so it is still forming a T-square with natal Sun-Saturn square.
Another interesting feature is that transiting Pluto opposed solar-Sibley natal Mars during our Afghanistan-Iraq declarations of war, then war on terrorism. As has been recently revealed, Saudi Arabia was the "enemy" in actuality...very Pluto-Mars.
Solar-Sibley provides an Aquarian Moon, which rules the solar-Sibley Cancer Sun, Mercury, Venus, and Jupiter.
mike ~ I realise there are valid arguments for your (and professional astrologers') favoured chart. I shall not arrgue too strenuously!
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: A nice thing about astrology (or religion) is that I can believe whatever I like to suit my purposes...LOL.
I agree with this 100%. ;-) And astrology is "elastic" enough to provide proof for whatever purpose one has in mind. This is largely why proof of astrology's validity is never going to happen. That's not to say astrology not valid in some specific ways though - it does seem to be when something "chimes" in our own life story.
My main objection to the Sibley chart is Cancer Sun. In no way can I see the USA as a Cancer Sun entity, according to textbook interpretation.
Here's another thought brought on by my first coffee: wouldn't the date of the 50th state's statehood be a better date to look into - that'd be when the USA actually became the entity it is today? Before that date it was something slightly different.
I don't buy Hawaii's statehood as altering the USA's natal chart. Hawaii's chart is August 21, 1959, but that's as far as I would take it. It would be similar to Bank of America opening various branches at differing times...BofA's natal chart doesn't change, but each branch would have its own natal chart. A CVS drugstore closed a very busy and successful branch two years ago near my house, then built-opened a new one a bit farther away in the opposite direction...the new branch is failing and will probably close soon, but CVS Caremark is thriving.
ReplyDeleteI completely "get" an assumed, USA Cancer Sun (plus Mercury, Venus, and Jupiter in Cancer), particularly with a Sibley 7th house containing Sun, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter. Maybe it's the Sun's house position that throws you, Twilight. The Sibley chart's 1st house (personality and presentation to the world) is mid-Sagittarius and contains the first 10* of Capricorn. This puts Capricorn on the 2nd house cusp and contains Pluto and S Node...the house of money and values...consider the dark side of Pluto in the 2nd and it's fitting to me. Also, consider the founding of America as the takeover of the land from the indigenous inhabitants...another dark, transmogrifying Pluto at work.
You might enjoy this link, "Astrology Signs for USA States and Cities"
ReplyDeletehttp://astromark.us/FREEelineState.pdf
I've had affinities for various places I've visited and it's interesting to compare the astrological synastry.
mike (again) ~ I know - Hawaii (the 50th) isn't a good yardstick for my iffy idea. I get your analogy of companies with various stores' differing start dates. Ah well, never mind!
ReplyDeleteWell...perhaps what I've done in this post is to "draw" an astrological cartoon of how I (purely personally) see the USA's communal personality flavour - which is different from the nation's birth chart (taking the USA as an entity similar to a company). Hey - that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :-)
Thanks for the pdf link. I'd investigated Oklahoma's birth chart in the past - Scorpio Sun, Aries Moon. Matches my natal Moon - one out of two ain't bad. Interesting that Kansas has Aquarius Sun - and I have always felt quite "at home" in Kansas. I'd assumed that is because it's more northerly and more in line with my roots in northern UK.
Related to this, my husband and I just started reading Nancy Isenberg's "White Trash. The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America."
ReplyDeletehttps://www.amazon.com/White-Trash-400-Year-History-America/dp/0670785970
Only a few chapters in and we're reading about how England's human "waste" (the rebels, criminals, vagrants and poor), represented a growing problem the ruling class wanted to be rid of. So these unwanted were shipped off to the New World to labor and exploit untapped resources for profit, and to aid (directly or indirectly) in the exploitation, oppression and destruction of indigenous people and nature for profit.
Some of the New World's exploited people eventually assimilated and became exploiters for profit themselves. Some didn't and continue to live on the fringes, still exploited, still considered less valuable by wealthier Americans, as most poor and exploited people are.
America's class system often pits one group (tribe) against another for profit, "the dark side of Pluto in the 2nd" mike commented on.
In trying to better understand the complexities and driving forces behind the US of A, another good book (though I admit to not having made it all the way through!) is Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States":
ReplyDeletehttp://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_the_feds_fear_thinkers_like_howard_zinn_20100801
For anyone interested, here are two excellent essays by Bill Herbst about Sibly chart aspects:
ReplyDeleteSun square Saturn:
http://billherbst.com/News59.pdf
Mars square Neptune:
http://billherbst.com/News61.pdf
LB ~ Yes, indeed! There were baskets (or shiploads) of deplorables, plus prisoners of wars, heading out from England to the New World, including Australia. I think Australia received even more of 'em than America did.
ReplyDeleteOnce space exploration gets underway (not too distant future, maybe) what's the betting that deplorables of all types will be exported again - the more things change, the more they.....etc.
Thanks, LB and mike for the links to investigate, will do!
Twilight ~ Weird. Just yesterday my husband and I were talking about how, as earth becomes more uninhabitable (which could be relatively soon), what's happened here may happen on other planets.:( Or at least some of us will try.
ReplyDeleteIf things continue as they have been, I also wonder if our government will reestablish workhouses (poorhouses, almshouses, poor and/or work farms), similar to what's already going on with prison labor.
Or maybe the US poor will be auctioned off once again! I was surprised when I googled it.
http://www.poorhousestory.com/history.htm
Humans do such terrible things to one another.:(
LB ~ The Bad Old Days could return - it's not beyond the realm of possibility, though many would deny it.
ReplyDeleteIn researching my family history I was surprised to discover, from census records, that my paternal grandfather spent most (perhaps all) of his childhood with his mother in a workhouse (in England). He was born out of wedlock, and I can only guess that his mother was thrown out by her father, in disgrace.
I wrote a bit about it in one of my family history posts:
Life in workhouses in the 19th century would have been grim, even grimmer, I suspect, after the Poor Law Amendment Act was passed in 1834. Emphasis in earlier times was more towards the relief of destitution rather than deterrence of idleness which characterized many of the institutions set up under the Act. Archived records of admissions to Stanway Workhouse were destroyed, so any hope of my being able to find out exactly when Mary and Edward [my grandad and his mother] were admitted are gone.
http://twilightstarsong.blogspot.com/2013/10/turning-down-empty-glass-1.html
We should have moved past need for that kind of thing, both here and in the UK. It'd probably take the aftermath of some kind of catastrophe or war to drag us so far backward; or a succession of truly bad governments.
mike (again) ~ Read both links + some comments on the second one. I'm shocked! It seems like the "thin end of the wedge" is already here. One of the injustices, among many, is that judges in different states are allowed to use different yardsticks to decide whether a person is indigent or wilfully refusing to pay (a fine or other state-imposed debt).
ReplyDeleteI watched the first 3 of 7 episodes of BBC's "Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrell" on Netflix last night and found it quite entertaining. You and anyjazz may like it.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE1nsOoTJos
"1806. England is beleaguered by the long war with Napoleon and centuries have passed since practical magicians faded into the nation’s past. However, scholars of this glorious history discover that one remains — the reclusive and skillful Mr Norrell (Marsan). His displays of magic soon thrill the nation. In London, he raises the beautiful Lady Pole (Englert) from the dead and summons an army of ghostly ships to terrify the French.
Soon the cautious and fussy Norrell is challenged by the emergence of another magician: the brilliant novice Jonathan Strange (Carvel). While trying to secure his beloved Arabella’s (Riley) hand in marriage, he meets a vagabond, the magician of Threadneedle Street, Vinculus (Paul Kaye, Game of Thrones, Stella), who tells him he is destined to be a great magician. Young, handsome and daring, Strange is the very antithesis of Norrell. A dangerous battle ensues between the two great men. Their obsessions and secret dabbling’s with the dark arts will cause more trouble than they can imagine."
http://www.bbcamerica.com/shows/jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell/about
mike (again) ~ Hmmm - That sounds familiar1 I think we watched at least a couple of episodes of that - either we've forgoten to continue (sometimes happens!) or decided we didn't like it - will go take another look at it tonight.
ReplyDeleteWe watched "Heaven's Gate" on amazon Prime last evening, while the storms continued outside for hours- as did the movie (continue for hours!) I'd seen it before in the 1980s, but remembered hardly anything. It was panned badly in 1980 when it was first released. We both were glad to have seen it, but it's way too long. The movie has a gorgeous look about it - kind of all sepia-ish, and some great photography.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(film)
Found out this morning that its writer/director Michael Cimino was born a week after me, and same day as an old schoolfriend of mine. He died this July. We didn't. ;-)