tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16659850.post124556783095470656..comments2024-03-17T03:42:21.277-05:00Comments on LEARNING CURVE ON THE ECLIPTIC: The Future Seen from the Past: Visions of Orwell, Huxley & ZamyatinTwilighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14138621610593773784noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16659850.post-47641000652394064012013-06-17T08:27:16.028-05:002013-06-17T08:27:16.028-05:00Chomp ~~~ Yes, indeed - the world has walked, and ...Chomp ~~~ Yes, indeed - the world has walked, and continues to do so, like a drunken man, on the edge of a precipice.<br />Twilighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14138621610593773784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16659850.post-78031048154427524672013-06-17T03:01:06.326-05:002013-06-17T03:01:06.326-05:00Really inteersting and fascinatimg, especially if ...Really inteersting and fascinatimg, especially if compared to what the world really became in he meantime, and to where the world went to, I mean: In and on what direction world had and has walked... <br /><br />Chompnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16659850.post-77349596171232729742013-06-16T09:00:15.371-05:002013-06-16T09:00:15.371-05:00RJ Adams ~~ Thanks for your views, RJ. :-)
Yes, I...RJ Adams ~~ Thanks for your views, RJ. :-)<br /><br />Yes, I see the cycle you're pointing out, and we can see it playing out in histories of countries around the world - at varying speeds. If we don't meet catastrophe from climate change first, a Great 'Elite versus The Rest' world war could be the trigger to send the cycle turning again in favour of The rest of us.<br /><br />We're in a situation now that hasn't ever happened before in recorded history, so all bets have to be off. Utopia and dystopia will be distant memories, either might seem like a better deal that what could lie in the future if somebody doesn't get their flippin' act together fast. Twilighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14138621610593773784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16659850.post-24060146830103389302013-06-15T22:18:46.053-05:002013-06-15T22:18:46.053-05:00Cycles, I agree with. But I see the cyclical strug...Cycles, I agree with. But I see the cyclical struggle as between the 'elite' (as they see themselves) and the rest of us - the 'working classes'.<br />For centuries the poor had no choice but to survive as best they could. They were little threat to the elite. Since the industrial revolution, workers have become more valuable to the elite, to work in their factories and make profits, but that value meant the workers could demand a higher standard of living in return for their labor (utopia). With the advent of modern day technology, the elite have been able to dispense with employing high-cost workers by utilizing more mechanization and shipping their manufacturing bases abroad to nations with lower wage demands, leaving many western workers without jobs (dystopia).<br />Normally, one would expect the cycle to eventually swing back towards its utopian aspect, but with the incredible tsunami of technological advancement over the last decade, coupled with climate change and an unprecedented surge in corporate/political power, I fear a disruption of the cycle which could well prove catastrophic.R J Adamshttp://sparrowchat.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16659850.post-41309741432704485652013-06-15T13:56:14.635-05:002013-06-15T13:56:14.635-05:00mike ~ Thanks for your careful thoughts.
There a...mike ~ Thanks for your careful thoughts.<br /> <br />There are several ways to look at this. One that struck me: <br /><br />I haven't read, or researched, the three "utopian" books mentioned by Fromm. It occurs me, though, that back in 16th/17th centuries books would have been written only by members of the elite classes. Ordinary people, known then as peasants, wouldn't have the eduction or skills to do so. Therefore the image we get from those authors' visions come from their advantaged perspective, possibly flavoured with Christian principles which, in theory sound very utopian, in practice can turn out quite differently.<br /><br />By the time what Fromm calls "negative utopian" novels were being written, though the welfare state hadn't fully caught on, education was more widespread, World War I and/or 2 had provided an horrific example of what man is capable of. All were aware of the horrors via newspapers, which wouldn't have been available during 16/17th centuries, leaving peasants quite in the dark.<br /> <br />So those later writers, from a variety of backgrounds, were able to write and publish stories tainted by World War I and World War 2, and were bound to envision a future scarred by what they had seen, if the pattern unfolding were to continue.<br /><br />There's also, I'm sure, the cycle-effect you mention, that has to be considered. Cycles occur in nature everywhere, human nature not excluded.<br /><br />I think we've reached the top point of a cycle at present - at a point where seeming miracles would be possible but we've arrived there before our emotional evolution has caught up with our technology and physical abilities.<br /><br />Yes, I think the cycles are in our genes (and therefore in our astrological makeup as a race) - the widest, outermost cycle, of many lesser ones, is that involved here I guess....perhaps represented by a planet or body not yet identified????<br />:-) <br /> <br /> Twilighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14138621610593773784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16659850.post-61925848794592357972013-06-15T12:58:57.724-05:002013-06-15T12:58:57.724-05:00The word, dystopia, is a qualitative word...one pe...The word, dystopia, is a qualitative word...one person's dystopia could be another's utopia. We have had many civilizations or societies that were (or currently are) dystopian, but viewed from the here-and-now of my perspective.<br /><br />It seems to me that Fromm's analysis of dystopia omits two important traits that are typically found throughout nature: an individual's need to be part of a group and the inherent need for a social structuring of that group into a larger collective or society. The three authors he cites write about a dystopian future where the social structure is being determined and governed by an elite group imposing their governance.<br /><br />Most views of utopia have a flat social structure where all members have a unique, but equal share. Dystopian views are typically of authoritarianism where members are dominated by a central malefic.<br /><br />There are leaders and there are followers. It seems that all species on Earth have a mechanism for selecting social hierarchy, which is always subject for review, with ongoing battles continually maintaining or re-establishing the social balance of that particular colony. Each colony is subject to selection of the fittest by challenges from adjacent colonies. Humans are no different in how an individual fits into their family, work, civic, and social groupings in general.<br /><br />My view, as a citizen of the USA, is that we have elected and maintained individuals in powerful positions having enough influence over the American culture and society, that America has become dystopian. America has had an influence on other industrialized nations such that they, too, are taking-on a dystopian flavor. I believe that everything has cycles and changes back-and-forth, so I have faith that our current cycle will eventually revert, but after how much damage, I do not know.<br /><br />Dystopia vs utopia is the basis of the great Roman and Greek myths. It's part of our heritage...built into our genes, perhaps.mikenoreply@blogger.com